4/30/2013 Stat Update Discussion

This thread really doesn't feel like a discussion thread; more of a "help me edit/improve my proposal to Jagex which will most likely be either shot down or ignored". I'll bite regardless:

I would propose Advanced Combat become a "Smogon" for EOC, but since the past of Runescape is all but forgotten (or even unknown) to most, it would be like trying to argue for the creation of Smogon after B/W were made, rather than when Smogon actually first began to exist.

The fact that the competitive scene for Pokemon was non-existant itself gave Smogon a niche in which to grow, similar to how Runescape lacks a true competitive PvP environment.

There remains an even smaller niche, maybe - for years now, I've watched players of a certain mindset lament the direction this game has taken.

In some ways, the ultimatum has always been "there's the door" - it's an ultimatum I've shoved down folks' throats myself. I don't think it's a fair one. I think people are entitled to enjoy some degree of PvP despite their disagreement with Jagex's desired designs.


Essentially, to me, folks complaining about EOC isn't so deserving of "there's the door" anymore unless they're being excessively whiny. I am not afraid to shove that unfair ultimatum down others' throats when they sound like babies, though. I reserve that right, if only to force others to do something that makes them happy instead of dwell on their sorrows.


In this particular clan, however, I don't see that whininess (as much). So why not play the game on our own terms and on our own time? That's what Smogon does with its Rule Clauses, its Tiering, its Bans-on-Certain-Abilities, and so on. Balancing and creating a tier-based PvP environment would likely be a much more simple operation; there are much fewer things to worry about in Runescape than in Pokemon.

The only thing that would probably stop such a system from taking root would be, frankly, how said system has no proponents. Smogon developed into its niche by virtue of it being simple for them to gain proponents - no sane person liked R/B/Y's Mewtwo centralized metagame, and nothing would've stopped that at any level of play had Smogon not stepped in. Granted, I liked it, but that's because I was like 8 and liked OHKOing everything with a pulse for no work. A good game wouldn't have captured my attention back then, because the notion of a good game was not something I cared about.


You vaguely mentioned how lousy the game's playerbase is in your proposal. I concede that point wholeheartedly as long as the accounts of that lousiness are valid and impartial. I will say this, though: this game's playerbase probably does not care as much about the notion of a good game as much as we'd like to think.

Advanced Combat is a shelter from some things; you're not going to find the odd 12 year old who wants to two-hit everything with Drygores here. This means that anyone who takes Advanced Combat, or the EOC Sub-forum on the RSOF for that matter, as representative of the playerbase are way out of touch with this game's true core.


So, my point:

We are not the core, Zamochy. We are fringe. Very fringe. This means that we are not all that likely to hold popular or liked views on where the EOC should go - and as result your ideas aren't likely to be pandered to, even if they were to satisfy both us and the core. (I believe that satisfying all rational parties is possible - it's just hard and requires a lot of interaction between developers and players.)

If the EOC and the competitive nature of PvP combat is distasteful to us in some ways and tasteful in others, then there really is no harm in making a tier-list of sorts on our own time to use amongst ourselves. As a matter of fact, you've unknowingling attempted to create such a thing in a certain thread:

Zamochy wrote:

So, here's an idea for a future PvP event:

• Two groups will fight against each other
  
  Each group will have 3 people
  
  Each person will use one side of the combat triangle

From there, it's all up to the group to decide on what to do.

Obviously there would have to be some coordination to make each group so that all the pro clan members aren't in a single group.

Armor and weapons would probably only be limited to level 70 to keep everything fair.

The only difficulty is finding everyone and getting them to agree on a tier-list. That's where Smogon's succeeded in its various bits of work.

If we are going to be devoted to the idea of a good game - and I don't mean "good in the eyes of Jazztronik when she was 8", I mean "good in her eyes now" - then work must be done to manifest that idea.

If we don't put forth the effort and discussion for it, then we're not devoted enough to do anything except be whiny, really - and that's not something to be pleased about.

I think we should create such a metagame for ourselves, but I also think I'm the only person here who thinks we should create such.

Honestly, that's a pretty good idea.

Like you said, it would be difficult to find the part of the community that wants to play competitively under a list of rules.

The community reports are usually ignored, so I doubt asking a J Mod to advertise that would work.

Maybe creating the tier-list and rules and asking a J Mod to sticky it in the EoC section might work.

Truthfully, Advanced Combat does a fine job already of filtering out the community between those who desire a competitive environment and those who don't. Most of us are associated with this clan primarily because, to some degree, we like certain aspects of PvP combat, and we want to see these aspects become more refined to our tastes.

There's nothing keeping the "A.C. Community" and "Competitive-PvP Community" from being mutually exclusive; recruiting for the former is literally the same as recruiting for the latter, and if recruiting for the latter isn't aiding the recruitment of the former, we still ultimately achieve the goal of an isolated competitive environment on the count of getting everyone with similar interests together anyways.

I think both communities would also agree that, similar to how it would be wise to not depend on this game's developers to bail us out of our misery, we shouldn't ask for them to promote such an idea for our sake. The idea of tier-lists goes far beyond being a format of sorts like the Clan Tournament Circuit - creating such a tier list is deliberately saying "we're so unhappy with what you've done with EOC that we're going to play it solely on our terms rather than yours".

This is why Smogon is in no way directly supported by Game Freak - bruising egos is no way to get an idea in fruition, and demanding a certain environment because the current one doesn't do squat to satisfy us does nothing but bruise egos.

This doesn't mean I wouldn't want any kind of interaction between the competitive communities and the devs - goodness knows I dream of such happening - however I just don't think we're there yet. Outside bug reports, player feedback in the RSOF has a knack for being either biased, stupid ,or ignored. It's only when feedback is "biased en-masse" or "stupid en-masse" that devs pander to the community's trouble, and I don't want the competitive community to be either.

I love the RPS setup, it brings back 2/2/2'ing full-strength.

@Jazz

Well, since we really can't tell how or where the "competitive PvP community" is, we would have to create the tier list within the clan first, advertising for large events once the foundation is created.

@Quantum

You do realize that as soon as they return the heavy accuracy penalty, and fix block distribution for All/Hybrid armor, Akrisae will reign supreme over 2/2/2. But if they do the accuracy update before/without the block fix, it'll result in hybridding, with gear swapping, being supreme, mainly because a strict combat triangle narrows your chance for an "even" fight.

If we ever create such a thing, it'll require lots of time and even more analysis of the game's past. We'll have to educate ourselves with the history-of-combat for starters.

But Zamochy if you really want to create a Smogon list for EOC then let's do it - f**k the drama and nonsense

I'd love to create an enjoyable meta-game(s) for everyone; a way for others to participate in PvP with love with enthusiasm and without frustration again.

^You know nothing's censored on this forum, right?

Anyway... if hybrid-type armor reigns supreme, I'm fine with that. I just like generic weapon-switch, without the armor-switching, combat.

Weapon-switch = quick and strategic, but relatively simple. You use different styles for their specific strengths, not because of a triangle.
Armor-switch = quick and strategic too, admittedly, but rather than using styles for their individual advantages, you just take advantage of the triangle. Bleh.

How I like to do it (using the example of what I view as my best ever 2/2/2 fight, the one where I took out Rory in his Beta Torva)
I had a Dark Bow and a Godsword, against Dual-CLS. I started out with the Dark Bow. Pulled out a nice Frag Shot early on, then used Binding Shot. I farcasted until the bind wore off, then switched to my Godsword for high damage. Towards the end of the fight, I switched back to the bow for some tanking strength/survival power.
Good fight, switching between styles for the strategic advantage.

What a full-hybrid fight is:
They're melee-->use Magic.
They switch to Ranged-->use Melee.
They switch to Magic-->use Ranged.
etc...
Boring.

Interesting ideas...

[NSFW]