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Manwe

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PostSubject: LOTR Discussion   Tue May 21, 2013 9:11 pm

Hazeel and I were being off-topic on FGU, so here's an on-topic thread for it...

Hazeel:
"Gandalf is Saradomin through and through.

Saruman is like Sigmund.

^ What........? No Gandalf is most similar to Jesus and he is symbolic of God having a plan for all of us.

Saruman is like Archmange Sedridor. Unable to see the big picture in the battle between good and evil and thus is susceptible to a warped view on right and wrong and can be turned. Plus he owns a tower and is a head wizard.

Zaros is Sauron because Sauron was a deceiver who manipulated peple into joining him. You could argue Zaros manipulating people with promises is similar to Sauron giving out the rings of power and then using them to control them.

But the similarities break off because Morgoth and Sauron are both manifestations of evil based on Satan."

Me:
"''Gandalf is Saradomin through and through.

Saruman is like Sigmund.

^ What........? No Gandalf is most similar to Jesus and he is symbolic of God having a plan for all of us.

Saruman is like Archmange Sedridor. Unable to see the big picture in the battle between good and evil and thus is susceptible to a warped view on right and wrong and can be turned. Plus he owns a tower and is a head wizard.

Zaros is Sauron because Sauron was a deceiver who manipulated peple into joining him. You could argue Zaros manipulating people with promises is similar to Sauron giving out the rings of power and then using them to control them.

But the similarities break off because Morgoth and Sauron are both manifestations of evil based on Satan.''

You have a completely wrong interpretation. I've read the lore behind LOTR, The Silmarillion, which goes back to the creation of Morgoth and his brethren even. Let me educate you on the lore of the Valar (of whom Morgoth is one).

First, the Valar were created by Eru, the one. He is the true god; the Valar are more of demigods. He created them such that they might sing a song which would please him. When they became physical, this 'song' became their behavior in Ea, the world, and especially on Arda, earth. The song as a whole is the complete history of Ea.

The Valar, when created, were essentially living manifestations of various parts of Eru. He would be akin to a god of balance, and states that any evil will only add to the greater glory of the song in the end.

Morgoth is the evil manifestation, the evil part of Eru that we all have. He wishes to go his own way and have control. In this way, he is both Zamorak and Zaros.

He is against the other Valar, who are the Ainur (Eru's creations) which went to Ea and Arda. They are led by Manwe, Lord of the Skies and King of Arda. Manwe is Armadyl, Lord of the Skies and equivalent to Demigod of Justice. Thus, Armadyl is the prime foe of Zamorak. He has never allied with him, even against Zaros.

Sauron is one of the lesser Ainur, who came with the Valar and became the Maiar, basically weaker equivalents. The Maiar include Melian (the wife of a great Elven king), Osse (assistant of Ulmo, Valar of Water), the Balrogs, the Sun and Moon (rather, the pilots of the Sun and Moon, which are vessels of fruits of an enchanted tree; the Elvish names of the Sun and Moon refer to the Maiar who pilot them) and Sauron. Sauron is the Lieutenant of Morgoth, who took over when he fell.

In fact, it is Sauron who represents Zamorak, but not Zaros. Sauron took over after Morgoth's fall. He's always been resisted by the followers of the other Valar (who are unified), that is, by Elves, Men and Dwarves (who are not unified). He's been delegated to controlling the East of Arda, as Zamorak rules Morytania. Sanguinesti is Mordor.

So...
Eru is the Elder Gods, ultimate creator
Manwe is Armadyl, Lord of the Skies and Vala of Justice
Orome is Saradomin. He strikes swiftly and mercilessly against the creatures of Sauron and Morgoth.
Morgoth (Melkor actually) is Zaros. He is manipulative, and wields control through his followers even since his banishment. (Whoever takes over from Sauron will be equal to Azzanadra)
Sauron is Zamorak. He took over after Morgoth's fall and is not nearly as powerful, but still very strong.
Gandalf and the other wizards are Ainur. They would be equal, in a way, to the God Emissaries. They are Messengers from the Valar sent to aid the fight against Sauron."


Hazeel:
"You're interpretation supports mine.

First, the Valar were created by Eru, the one. He is the true god; the Valar are more of demigods. He created them such that they might sing a song which would please him. When they became physical, this 'song' became their behavior in Ea, the world, and especially on Arda, earth. The song as a whole is the complete history of Ea.

^ This is like God 'Eru' and his angels the 'Valar'. Morgoth is one of the Valar, but he falls from grace, if I remember correctly, because betrayed the angels (since this is what they were a metaphor of). In doing so his name changes from Melkor to Morgoth. This is similar to Lucifer, most powerful of Gods angels, falling from grace and becoming Satan. In falling from grace Morgoth brings original sin into the world, from which all other evil stems. This includes Sauron.

The whole point of Tolkens writing was that everybody can be vessels for both good and evil.Depending on your choices, you either take actions that have an effect of greater good or greater bad. God and the devil (good and evil) can't directly control you until you willingly give into temptation (the rings) and then you are being a servant for one of those forces.

An example of this is Boromir; he gives into temptation but redeems himself. Him sacrificing himself (I hope you're following the religious parallels btw) buys time for frodo to get away. This seemingly small and individual act of good has a butterfly effect on the entire story. The theme is that you're small internal moral decisions have a great effect on the external moral conflict of good and evil.

Additionally, Gandalf puts people in situations where they can't choose to do good or bad and they decide the fate of the world themselves, emphasing the importance of this theme.

Therefor Morgoth and Sauron are manifestations of thesame thing, the will of evl to deceive and manipulate people into doing evil. And Zaros is similar to that h=in his will to manipulate."


Me:
"Melkor never fell from grace, and he never betrayed anyone. He went against the specific theme for the whole song, but Eru didn't fight this, he simply told him that dissent would add to the greater glory of the thing in the end.

Melkor was never popular with the other Valar, but Eru liked him just fine. He participated with Eru's allowance in the goings-on in Arda. He was still Melkor. He was named Morgoth, ''Dark Enemy'', by Feanor after he took the Silmarils.

I believe God's biblical objective is good? Eru doesn't care one way or the other, he just wants basically a cool movie to watch. Manwe is the Lord of Justice, and more along the God lines.

Boromir's sacrifice allowed nothing. The other members of the Fellowship would have held off the Orcs. In fact, Frodo would have gotten away faster without Boromir's betrayal and subsequent redemption.

Gandalf is the good-guy Zaros. He manipulates people into doing his wishes, and his wishes are to defend the Free People of Middle-Earth on the orders of the Valar. He's never put someone in a position without knowing which they would choose beforehand.

Morgoth is a manifestation of the desire for control and power. Zamorak is a manifestation of the desire for outright evil."


Hazeel:
"Melkor never fell from grace, and he never betrayed anyone. He went against the specific theme for the whole song, but Eru didn't fight this, he simply told him that dissent would add to the greater glory of the thing in the end.

^ Yes I'm sketchy with the details, but this is what I meant and amounts to exactly the same thing. God allows Satan to have a role after he was sent out so it still fits perfectly.

Melkor was never popular with the other Valar, but Eru liked him just fine. He participated with Eru's allowance in the goings-on in Arda. He was still Melkor. He was named Morgoth, ''Dark Enemy'', by Feanor after he took the Silmarils.

^ Again, not sure how this contradicts what I said at all. Just adds the details I brushed over.

I believe God's biblical objective is good? Eru doesn't care one way or the other, he just wants basically a cool movie to watch. Manwe is the Lord of Justice, and more along the God lines.

^ This is because it is symbolic of the holy trinity; the creator, the holy spirit (personal guide and conscience) and Jesus. Of course there is slight variation; Tolkien hated direct analogy (he hated C.S Lewis' Narnia tales as they were basically exactly the same as the bible) but if you read his letters he mentions that his writings were 'deeply catholic, unconscionably at first but deliberately so in revision' (paraphrase).

I think you have a detailed description and an interpretation mixed up I think."

"Boromir's sacrifice allowed nothing. The other members of the Fellowship would have held off the Orcs. In fact, Frodo would have gotten away faster without Boromir's betrayal and subsequent redemption.

^ If he didn't overcome his desire for the ring he would have hunted Frodo in the carnage and taken the ring him self. He told Aragorn the other hobbits were taken away and if they didn't get them back Sauron would never have been tricked. We have no idea how the battle would have differed if he didn't distract so many of them; maybe Aragorn would have died.

Gandalf is the good-guy Zaros. He manipulates people into doing his wishes, and his wishes are to defend the Free People of Middle-Earth on the orders of the Valar. He's never put someone in a position without knowing which they would choose beforehand.

^ Agreed.

Morgoth is a manifestation of the desire for control and power. Zamorak is a manifestation of the desire for outright evil.

^ Nonsense! For a start Zamorak isn't a manifestation at all; he wasn't written by Tolkien. And he isn't evil either.

Also, since Zaros is the manipulator according to Tolkien Zaros corrupting him would be the causation of his evil, making him the manifestation of the desire for outright evil."

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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Tue May 21, 2013 9:20 pm

"Melkor never fell from grace, and he never betrayed anyone. He went against the specific theme for the whole song, but Eru didn't fight this, he simply told him that dissent would add to the greater glory of the thing in the end.

^ Yes I'm sketchy with the details, but this is what I meant and amounts to exactly the same thing. God allows Satan to have a role after he was sent out so it still fits perfectly.

Melkor was never popular with the other Valar, but Eru liked him just fine. He participated with Eru's allowance in the goings-on in Arda. He was still Melkor. He was named Morgoth, ''Dark Enemy'', by Feanor after he took the Silmarils.

^ Again, not sure how this contradicts what I said at all. Just adds the details I brushed over.

I believe God's biblical objective is good? Eru doesn't care one way or the other, he just wants basically a cool movie to watch. Manwe is the Lord of Justice, and more along the God lines.

^ This is because it is symbolic of the holy trinity; the creator, the holy spirit (personal guide and conscience) and Jesus. Of course there is slight variation; Tolkien hated direct analogy (he hated C.S Lewis' Narnia tales as they were basically exactly the same as the bible) but if you read his letters he mentions that his writings were 'deeply catholic, unconscionably at first but deliberately so in revision' (paraphrase).

I think you have a detailed description and an interpretation mixed up I think"

But that's the point, it's not a matter of allowing this roll: ERU MADE THAT ROLL FOR MELKOR and he was never cast out by Eru, only by the other Valar. Basically, people in churches are preaching about Manwe, he's the one who tries to protect Arda from Melkor.

It contradicts what you said because the Bible calls Satan a 'bad guy', yes? Melkor is bad to the Valar, BUT NOT TO ERU.

The Creator is good. The Holy Spirit is not there. Manwe is a King, not a conscience. He wages war against Melkor because Melkor destroys what he creates; he was fighting long before the Children of Iluvatar (Elves and Men) came around, simply for the sake of the world he shaped. In fact, Manwe and the other Valar are Creators; Eru made Arda a featureless ball and the Valar shaped it.


"Boromir's sacrifice allowed nothing. The other members of the Fellowship would have held off the Orcs. In fact, Frodo would have gotten away faster without Boromir's betrayal and subsequent redemption.

^ If he didn't overcome his desire for the ring he would have hunted Frodo in the carnage and taken the ring him self. He told Aragorn the other hobbits were taken away and if they didn't get them back Sauron would never have been tricked. We have no idea how the battle would have differed if he didn't distract so many of them; maybe Aragorn would have died.

Gandalf is the good-guy Zaros. He manipulates people into doing his wishes, and his wishes are to defend the Free People of Middle-Earth on the orders of the Valar. He's never put someone in a position without knowing which they would choose beforehand.

^ Agreed.

Morgoth is a manifestation of the desire for control and power. Zamorak is a manifestation of the desire for outright evil.

^ Nonsense! For a start Zamorak isn't a manifestation at all; he wasn't written by Tolkien. And he isn't evil either.

Also, since Zaros is the manipulator according to Tolkien Zaros corrupting him would be the causation of his evil, making him the manifestation of the desire for outright evil."

No he wouldn't have, Frodo put the ring on and turned invisible. Boromir had no chance. Aragorn wouldn't have died, he's a Dunadan. The orcs had no chance. Sauron's being tricked really didn't matter; he was planning to attack Minas Tirith beforehand, and his hand was forced by Aragon's use of the Palantir.

I meant Sauron. And Sauron became evil in his hunt to overcome the good enemies of Morgoth, which continued when he became the head of that movement.

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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Tue May 21, 2013 10:12 pm

This is hard to read, why is everything in the wrong order and repeated?

Anyway:

The Creator is good. The Holy Spirit is not there. Manwe is a King, not a conscience. He wages war against Melkor because Melkor destroys what he creates; he was fighting long before the Children of Iluvatar (Elves and Men) came around, simply for the sake of the world he shaped. In fact, Manwe and the other Valar are Creators; Eru made Arda a featureless ball and the Valar shaped it.

^ It's not supposed to be absolutely literal, but the idea the different roles are split between different divine people is similar to the holy trinity. Also Gandalf, as you said, manipulates people for good. This could be an aspect of the holy spirit. As I've said it isn't entirely a literal analogy (which Tolkien hated) but there's definitely a correlation in theme.

No he wouldn't have, Frodo put the ring on and turned invisible. Boromir had no chance. Aragorn wouldn't have died, he's a Dunadan. The orcs had no chance. Sauron's being tricked really didn't matter; he was planning to attack Minas Tirith beforehand, and his hand was forced by Aragon's use of the Palantir.

^ Boromir was an awkward example I'll admit, but you can't say no good came out f his resistance to the temptation he was so susceptible to. If he didn't fight it he could have taken the ring earlier at any time. The point still stands, especially when you compare it to what Gandalf has to say about purpose.

But that's the point, it's not a matter of allowing this roll: ERU MADE THAT ROLL FOR MELKOR and he was never cast out by Eru, only by the other Valar. Basically, people in churches are preaching about Manwe, he's the one who tries to protect Arda from Melkor.

^ I think you'll find that Satan has a role to play for God after he is cast out and the have a bet over the corruptibility of the human race.

The Creator is good. The Holy Spirit is not there. Manwe is a King, not a conscience. He wages war against Melkor because Melkor destroys what he creates; he was fighting long before the Children of Iluvatar (Elves and Men) came around, simply for the sake of the world he shaped. In fact, Manwe and the other Valar are Creators; Eru made Arda a featureless ball and the Valar shaped it.

^ Again you're focusing on detail not theme.

I meant Sauron. And Sauron became evil in his hunt to overcome the good enemies of Morgoth, which continued when he became the head of that movement.

^ This furtherns my point that in Tolkien's world evil exists as a base presense and the characters who represent it aren't the evil itself. Starting with Morgoth bringing it in to the world
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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Tue May 21, 2013 10:22 pm

Gandalf is more like the equivalent of an angel. He may manipulate people, but the other Wizards don't. They were messengers sent by the good-guy to help fight the bad-guy.

Nope, if Boromir takes the ring Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli or someone kills him, they continue on without any groaning about Minas Tirith, and Frodo and Sam still escape. End of story.

Again, God is trying to stop the human race getting corrupted, yes? Eru doesn't care.

Yes, that is a theme. Except Sauron is evil: He was not born to represent it, he was corrupted by Melkor. Melkor himself represents manipulation and deceit with the end result of evil, not evil itself. He became evil, and he is evil, because that was not his purpose, that was the end result of it.

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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Tue May 21, 2013 10:52 pm

Gandalf is more like the equivalent of an angel. He may manipulate people, but the other Wizards don't. They were messengers sent by the good-guy to help fight the bad-guy.

^ There isn't character to character comparisons as such, Tolkien didn't like that. Gandalf is similar to Jesus when he comes back to like for example.

Nope, if Boromir takes the ring Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli or someone kills him, they continue on without any groaning about Minas Tirith, and Frodo and Sam still escape. End of story.

^ No he could of slit their throats in their sleep. There are loads of possibilities. I presume you're familier with the butterfly effect, his actions could have impacted the story in many ways. If he kills Frodo, no one else is strong enough to carry the ring. If he was entirely possed, killing frodo for the ring wouldn't be beyond him. Then it would be game over. The books aren't that detailed when it comes to the Urakai raid. Anything could of happened, and his actions have an inevitable effect on what did have happen. Therefor if he doesn't fight the Urakai as he does there are a multitude of possibilities that could have happened. Mary and Pippen not getting taking, for instance, would completely change the paths of Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas which would change the entire story.

Again, God is trying to stop the human race getting corrupted, yes? Eru doesn't care.

^ Um, he sends a tidal wave across Numinor because Sauron corrupted the humans. They tried to get to the lands of the undying and he just wipes the continent out (more biblical references there).

Yes, that is a theme. Except Sauron is evil: He was not born to represent it, he was corrupted by Melkor. Melkor himself represents manipulation and deceit with the end result of evil, not evil itself. He became evil, and he is evil, because that was not his purpose, that was the end result of it.

^ That's precisely what I've been saying.
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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Tue May 21, 2013 11:56 pm

Can't argue about Gandalf and Boromir.

No, he didn't send a tidal wave across Numenor because Sauron corrupted the humans. He sent a tidal wave because the Valar asked him to.

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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Wed May 22, 2013 3:46 am


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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Wed May 22, 2013 3:51 am

Because the Valar were worried abut the humans.

If he is prepared to destroy his own creation because the Valar are worried, I'd say that shows some worry for the state of his races. The scenario is too similar to Noahs ark to ignore anyway.

Also the Valar are different aspects of Eru's creation correct? If all the divine races come from him, then if they're concerned about the goings on in Arda then he must be partially so too, otherwise he wouldn't create them to uphold certain values.
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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Wed May 22, 2013 12:41 pm

He didn't destroy his own creation. The Valar essentially created the Numernoreans, and they did create Numenor. The Numenoreans existed because the children of... ah, I forgot his name... anyway, they came to Valinor and were given the choice to be Elvish or Human. One, Elrond (the very same), chose to be Elvish; the other, whose name I can't remember, chose to be Human, but was still granted long life (500+ years) and his own island by the Valar.

Eru had nothing to do with it.



You're still getting the wrong image of how the Valar work. It's not that he created them to do certain things; he created them to represent himself, and they all took on a different part of him, not really by choice. Manwe is the Justice, the Guardian; Melkor is the Manipulator, the Power-Hungry; Tulkas is the Warrior; Orome is the Hunter.

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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Wed May 22, 2013 1:16 pm

The children of Hurin?

And if the Valar take a part of him then they act on the very principles he created.

If he didn't care why do the thing most would have hated for the sake of the Valar if he didn't care about their judgement on the world? He puts everything on Arda for a purpose.

If Eru created the Valar and the Valar created humans and elves, they're still technically his creation. The Valar are extentions of Eru, as you hinted at yourself.

But regardless, I was referring to the actual island rather than the people anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Wed May 22, 2013 9:53 pm

The Valar didn't create humans and elves, Eru did. And not the Children of Hurin. However, the Valar created the Numenoreans, because they gave Elros... remembered his name... the choice between Elvishness and Humanity. He chose the latter, but was granted very long life and his own island. Eru didn't put the island there, the Valar shaped Arda.

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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Thu May 23, 2013 3:36 am

The Valar are an extension of him.
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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Thu May 23, 2013 1:33 pm

In a way, yes... but they do not always act as he would. It is stated in The Silmarillion that "Manwe was closest to Iluvatar, and most understood his mind."
Iluvatar is the Elvish name for Eru.

This indicates that they do not all, in fact, act as Eru would.

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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Thu May 23, 2013 6:38 pm

Hmmm ok I can see that, but if they're all created by him, they all must have some purpose in the world.

And if they provide function, one must conclude the person who created them to perform those functions wanted them to, unless they were somehow corrupted from purpose (Melkor?).

If the watch is designed, it must have a designer, so to speak.
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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Thu May 23, 2013 7:33 pm

None of them were corrupted. However, they each represent an individual piece of Eru:
Melkor, greed and manipulation
Manwe, nobility and leadership
Mandos, foresight
Ulmo, wisdom
Orome, righteous fury
etc.

And these parts act differently on their own than all together. I doubt even Eru knows how they would all behave.

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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Thu May 23, 2013 8:00 pm

None of them were corrupted. However, they each represent an individual piece of Eru:
Melkor, greed and manipulation
Manwe, nobility and leadership
Mandos, foresight
Ulmo, wisdom
Orome, righteous fury
etc.

^ Okay.

And these parts act differently on their own than all together. I doubt even Eru knows how they would all behave.

^ Free will right there.

And this is interesting too, I remember Saruman said something along the lines of " hen you split white light many colours are visible" Similar to Eru splitting apart his individual aspects. Related?
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PostSubject: Re: LOTR Discussion   Thu May 23, 2013 9:59 pm

I think Saruman was just saying that he was showing his true colors. But, I guess in a way it's similar.

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