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 4/30/2013 Stat Update Discussion

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Zamochy
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PostSubject: 4/30/2013 Stat Update Discussion    Wed May 01, 2013 12:55 am

[Introduction]

Honestly, this update takes us so many steps back that we're back in the beta.

We have told Jagex time and time again that the combat triangle being too strict is not fun.

Rock-Paper-Scissors (RPS) only works in certain systems. The systems it works in are the ones that allows and encourages the player to switch between RPS. Jagex encourages us to train all three, but we're always forced to stick to one style during an activity.

Jagex introduces two new armor groups, Power and Hybrid. Power is only a damage boost that is determined by 10% of a fastest weapon of that tier. And Hybrid Armour is a joke. Wearing it means I don't receive accuracy penalties while sacrificing 15 levels worth of armour and health. I can wear mix-and-match Tank Armour and sacrifice 1%/3%/5% accuracy for wearing the wrong chest.

And this leads us to Accuracy and Armour Rating. Accuracy means nothing anymore, all that matters if that you wear the best and appropriate armor. I wore Full Pernix + Superior Death Lotus Body against someone with a Chaotic Staff. They barely touched me. I fight a low level with dual Dragon Longswords with the same setup. He was hitting more accurately than a Chaotic Staff.

So... Where does this leave us? Well... We're back to a strict combat triangle where certain armor setups are God Mode, and there is basically no accuracy penalty. Not only that, but if you have Player-owned Port armor, you're basically an Elder God.


[Combat Triangle]

On paper, the combat triangle made so much sense, but when has it ever created balance?

Pre-EoC, the combat triangle was used to justify nerfing Melee. As soon as the EoC Beta was out, everyone complained that the combat triangle was too strict. The time when we had the most balance was before this update. Aside from Melee's mobility issues, everything was pretty balanced. The combat triangle was then used to demand nerfs. Melee said Ranged was OP, so they demanded nerfs, regardless of the fact that Magers could keep them binded even longer. Now we're back to a strict combat triangle and it's causing an uproar once more.

In PvM, the combat triangle works just fine. In PvP, the combat triangle causes chaos since anytime someone loses against the opposite part of the triangle, they complain and call that style OP.

This update did not impact PvM as badly as it did PvP. There needs to be a separation of PvM and PvP because it is impossible to balance one set of armor between both of these worlds. I suggest ''removing'' the combat triangle in PvP by creating PvP armor that is only ''All/Hybrid''.


[PvP]

PvP Armour should have a sort of Resilience/Armour Penetration system to it, where Resilience reduces the amount of damage received and Armor Penetration ignores a certain amount of Resilience during a Critical Hit. This would bring back that old 'unpredictability' the old system had while not being completely ridiculous with the hits.

Each tier of PvP Armour will have a set effect for that tier. The set effect will give the majority of the Resilience. This would penalize anyone wanting to risk a small amount in dangerous PvP activities. And the weapons will give the Armour Penetration, along with a nice amount of crit (armour will have some crit too).

To create a money sink, and to encourage skilling, the armour can only be created using Crafting, Smithing, and Runecrafting with a vendor-bought material. The tiers would simply be 1, 10, 20, etc and you'll need an equivalent level of the skills mentioned to create a set. The weapons only require Smithing, Runecrafting, and Fletching to make (level tier = level to make).


[Tank, Hybrid, and Power Armour]

The concept of this is good, but the execution is poorly done.

First, return all the armors to their original tier values.

Tank Armour will provide a set effect (Body, Legs, Helm only) that gives you a chance to increase your armor rating by a certain amount, stacking up to 3 times. For example: 3/3 Pieces of Tetsu gives you a 1/10 chance upon receiving damage to increase your armour rating by 10% for 10 seconds, stacks up to 30%.

Hybrid/All Armour will provide a set effect that removes the Global Cooldown on switching gear. What good is being able to mix-and-match weapons if you're at a disadvantage for switching weapons? Only 3/3 set items are needed to activate this (so 3/3 void/obsidian items).

Power Armour will function differently. Since Power sets have 5 items to them, I'm going to suggest 2 set effects per set, 3/5 and 5/5. The 3/5 set effect will be it's current set effect: the 10% (of that tier) damage boost. The 5/5 set effect should be unique to each set of armour, increasing the DPS of underused/generic abilities so they are used more in different settings. For example:

Bandos - Fury becomes instant cast, dealing 157% damage and breaking free from any binds.

Armadyl - Snipe becomes instant cast, but deals 157% damage.

Subjugation - If not within Melee Distance, Dragon Breath can be used from afar for 157% damage.

Torva - Berserk no longer halves your armor and you cannot be binded for 20 seconds (can still be stunned).

Pernix - Death's Swiftness duration is increased to 20 seconds and the shroud radius is increased to 7x7 while dealing AoE damage.

Virtus - When on Ancients, Omnipower triggers the secondary effects of the four Ancient elements. Damage is also increased by 10% for 10 seconds.


[Conclusion]

Disregarding all the bugs that still haven't been fixed... What should Jagex's course of action be?

First, they should revert the Stat and Armour Update and postpone it.

Second, they need to open a Beta Server to allow players to test updates that change game mechanics.

Third, they need to focus on fixing all the bugs and glitches that have been ignored for the past few months.

Fourth, they need to not shut out the players trying to provide honest and constructive feedback. This means they need to clean up and monitor the EoC forums so it is a place of feedback for the ''combat system'', not a place to rant and ask random questions about items or monsters.

I don't see my suggestions making it to the live game, but I do want to show Jagex that their game can have depth. Also, one thing Jagex needs to realize is that even though a number of players do think of EoC as the future of the game, most players won't stick around if they are constantly changing the foundation of the game in a destructive manner.

So remember Jagex, if you want to test game mechanics, open a quick Beta for everyone.
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PostSubject: Re: 4/30/2013 Stat Update Discussion    Wed May 01, 2013 2:00 pm

This thread really doesn't feel like a discussion thread; more of a "help me edit/improve my proposal to Jagex which will most likely be either shot down or ignored". I'll bite regardless:

I would propose Advanced Combat become a "Smogon" for EOC, but since the past of Runescape is all but forgotten (or even unknown) to most, it would be like trying to argue for the creation of Smogon after B/W were made, rather than when Smogon actually first began to exist.

The fact that the competitive scene for Pokemon was non-existant itself gave Smogon a niche in which to grow, similar to how Runescape lacks a true competitive PvP environment.

There remains an even smaller niche, maybe - for years now, I've watched players of a certain mindset lament the direction this game has taken.

In some ways, the ultimatum has always been "there's the door" - it's an ultimatum I've shoved down folks' throats myself. I don't think it's a fair one. I think people are entitled to enjoy some degree of PvP despite their disagreement with Jagex's desired designs.


Essentially, to me, folks complaining about EOC isn't so deserving of "there's the door" anymore unless they're being excessively whiny. I am not afraid to shove that unfair ultimatum down others' throats when they sound like babies, though. I reserve that right, if only to force others to do something that makes them happy instead of dwell on their sorrows.


In this particular clan, however, I don't see that whininess (as much). So why not play the game on our own terms and on our own time? That's what Smogon does with its Rule Clauses, its Tiering, its Bans-on-Certain-Abilities, and so on. Balancing and creating a tier-based PvP environment would likely be a much more simple operation; there are much fewer things to worry about in Runescape than in Pokemon.

The only thing that would probably stop such a system from taking root would be, frankly, how said system has no proponents. Smogon developed into its niche by virtue of it being simple for them to gain proponents - no sane person liked R/B/Y's Mewtwo centralized metagame, and nothing would've stopped that at any level of play had Smogon not stepped in. Granted, I liked it, but that's because I was like 8 and liked OHKOing everything with a pulse for no work. A good game wouldn't have captured my attention back then, because the notion of a good game was not something I cared about.


You vaguely mentioned how lousy the game's playerbase is in your proposal. I concede that point wholeheartedly as long as the accounts of that lousiness are valid and impartial. I will say this, though: this game's playerbase probably does not care as much about the notion of a good game as much as we'd like to think.

Advanced Combat is a shelter from some things; you're not going to find the odd 12 year old who wants to two-hit everything with Drygores here. This means that anyone who takes Advanced Combat, or the EOC Sub-forum on the RSOF for that matter, as representative of the playerbase are way out of touch with this game's true core.


So, my point:

We are not the core, Zamochy. We are fringe. Very fringe. This means that we are not all that likely to hold popular or liked views on where the EOC should go - and as result your ideas aren't likely to be pandered to, even if they were to satisfy both us and the core. (I believe that satisfying all rational parties is possible - it's just hard and requires a lot of interaction between developers and players.)

If the EOC and the competitive nature of PvP combat is distasteful to us in some ways and tasteful in others, then there really is no harm in making a tier-list of sorts on our own time to use amongst ourselves. As a matter of fact, you've unknowingling attempted to create such a thing in a certain thread:

Zamochy wrote:
So, here's an idea for a future PvP event:

  • Two groups will fight against each other

    Each group will have 3 people

    Each person will use one side of the combat triangle


From there, it's all up to the group to decide on what to do.

Obviously there would have to be some coordination to make each group so that all the pro clan members aren't in a single group.

Armor and weapons would probably only be limited to level 70 to keep everything fair.

The only difficulty is finding everyone and getting them to agree on a tier-list. That's where Smogon's succeeded in its various bits of work.

If we are going to be devoted to the idea of a good game - and I don't mean "good in the eyes of Jazztronik when she was 8", I mean "good in her eyes now" - then work must be done to manifest that idea.

If we don't put forth the effort and discussion for it, then we're not devoted enough to do anything except be whiny, really - and that's not something to be pleased about.

I think we should create such a metagame for ourselves, but I also think I'm the only person here who thinks we should create such.


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PostSubject: Re: 4/30/2013 Stat Update Discussion    Wed May 01, 2013 2:22 pm

Honestly, that's a pretty good idea.

Like you said, it would be difficult to find the part of the community that wants to play competitively under a list of rules.

The community reports are usually ignored, so I doubt asking a J Mod to advertise that would work.

Maybe creating the tier-list and rules and asking a J Mod to sticky it in the EoC section might work.

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PostSubject: Re: 4/30/2013 Stat Update Discussion    Wed May 01, 2013 3:33 pm

Truthfully, Advanced Combat does a fine job already of filtering out the community between those who desire a competitive environment and those who don't. Most of us are associated with this clan primarily because, to some degree, we like certain aspects of PvP combat, and we want to see these aspects become more refined to our tastes.

There's nothing keeping the "A.C. Community" and "Competitive-PvP Community" from being mutually exclusive; recruiting for the former is literally the same as recruiting for the latter, and if recruiting for the latter isn't aiding the recruitment of the former, we still ultimately achieve the goal of an isolated competitive environment on the count of getting everyone with similar interests together anyways.

I think both communities would also agree that, similar to how it would be wise to not depend on this game's developers to bail us out of our misery, we shouldn't ask for them to promote such an idea for our sake. The idea of tier-lists goes far beyond being a format of sorts like the Clan Tournament Circuit - creating such a tier list is deliberately saying "we're so unhappy with what you've done with EOC that we're going to play it solely on our terms rather than yours".

This is why Smogon is in no way directly supported by Game Freak - bruising egos is no way to get an idea in fruition, and demanding a certain environment because the current one doesn't do squat to satisfy us does nothing but bruise egos.

This doesn't mean I wouldn't want any kind of interaction between the competitive communities and the devs - goodness knows I dream of such happening - however I just don't think we're there yet. Outside bug reports, player feedback in the RSOF has a knack for being either biased, stupid ,or ignored. It's only when feedback is "biased en-masse" or "stupid en-masse" that devs pander to the community's trouble, and I don't want the competitive community to be either.
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PostSubject: Re: 4/30/2013 Stat Update Discussion    Wed May 01, 2013 7:46 pm

I love the RPS setup, it brings back 2/2/2'ing full-strength.

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PostSubject: Re: 4/30/2013 Stat Update Discussion    Wed May 01, 2013 10:51 pm

@Jazz

Well, since we really can't tell how or where the "competitive PvP community" is, we would have to create the tier list within the clan first, advertising for large events once the foundation is created.

@Quantum

You do realize that as soon as they return the heavy accuracy penalty, and fix block distribution for All/Hybrid armor, Akrisae will reign supreme over 2/2/2. But if they do the accuracy update before/without the block fix, it'll result in hybridding, with gear swapping, being supreme, mainly because a strict combat triangle narrows your chance for an "even" fight.

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PostSubject: Re: 4/30/2013 Stat Update Discussion    Thu May 02, 2013 7:02 pm

If we ever create such a thing, it'll require lots of time and even more analysis of the game's past. We'll have to educate ourselves with the history-of-combat for starters.

But Zamochy if you really want to create a Smogon list for EOC then let's do it - f**k the drama and nonsense Razz

I'd love to create an enjoyable meta-game(s) for everyone; a way for others to participate in PvP with love with enthusiasm and without frustration again.
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PostSubject: Re: 4/30/2013 Stat Update Discussion    Thu May 02, 2013 10:08 pm

^You know nothing's censored on this forum, right?

Anyway... if hybrid-type armor reigns supreme, I'm fine with that. I just like generic weapon-switch, without the armor-switching, combat.

Weapon-switch = quick and strategic, but relatively simple. You use different styles for their specific strengths, not because of a triangle.
Armor-switch = quick and strategic too, admittedly, but rather than using styles for their individual advantages, you just take advantage of the triangle. Bleh.

How I like to do it (using the example of what I view as my best ever 2/2/2 fight, the one where I took out Rory in his Beta Torva)
I had a Dark Bow and a Godsword, against Dual-CLS. I started out with the Dark Bow. Pulled out a nice Frag Shot early on, then used Binding Shot. I farcasted until the bind wore off, then switched to my Godsword for high damage. Towards the end of the fight, I switched back to the bow for some tanking strength/survival power.
Good fight, switching between styles for the strategic advantage.

What a full-hybrid fight is:
They're melee-->use Magic.
They switch to Ranged-->use Melee.
They switch to Magic-->use Ranged.
etc...
Boring.

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PostSubject: Re: 4/30/2013 Stat Update Discussion    Fri May 03, 2013 4:47 pm

Interesting ideas...
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PostSubject: Re: 4/30/2013 Stat Update Discussion    Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:05 pm

[NSFW]










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