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 What Makes a Good Combat System?

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Manwe

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PostSubject: What Makes a Good Combat System?   Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:38 am

Just for the sake of curiosity... what do you guys think makes up an ideal combat system?  Any factors that contribute, compile them here.

My Thoughts:
-Aim/Dodge/Block
-A few abilities, but not as many; Skyrim's Shouts are a good example.  You won't win a fight with them, but they'll make it very easy:  Unrelenting Power doesn't kill anyone, but it stuns them pretty severely, allowing me to win easily.  However, it has a long cooldown to compensate, and is ineffective against more powerful foes like Dragons.
-Distinctions between Classes: A Ranger should be a fast-moving class with weak armor, dealing either rapid, low hits (think Rapid Fire) or slow, very powerful and accurate hits (Incendiary Shot).  A Mage should be slow moving with extremely weak armor, but be able to avoid damage with magic, and deal devastating hits with nasty effects (Ancient Magicks, but more powerful).  A Warrior should be slow, but very tough, with massive and accurate hits, but less reliable DPS.
-Side strategies:  Things like Sneak, for example, in Skyrim.  I move slower and it works better in weak armor, but I get extremely powerful stealth attacks plus evading detection.
-Specialized weapons:  Different weapons have different capabilities.  Daggers are very weak, but with nasty backstabs; most melee weapons have similar DPS, but vary in speed, power and range, etc.

As in all of these, we can look at Skyrim for an ideal case.  Shouts for abilities; first-person aim/dodge/block; Mages have 0 armor, yet can drain the target's Magicka and Stamina (used for spells and power attacks) or just deal heavy damage; Rangers have weak armor, but long range, and the Stealth Attacks are more useable than Magic, while hitting harder than Melee; Melee warriors have heavy armor and powerful weapons, but move slowly and can't sneak very well.  Also, Sneak is directly from Skyrim, so yeah... and Daggers are weak but with 15x Stealth damage, vs. 6x for 1h weapons, 3x for bows, and 2x for 2h melee.

Your Thoughts:
Capricorn wrote:
- Movement: How you move around the battlefield should mean a lot more than it does now.
-Quality over Quantity: Instead of trying to make us use as many abilities as possible, make our abilities actually do something aside from DPS.
- Change the Stats System: Here we get into the "WoW-Scape" area where we're going to be like more "traditional" MMOs. Give us 4 basic stats on our combat stats: Power, Precision, Vitality, and Toughness. Power increases damage dealt, Precision increases your Critical Hit chance, Vitality increases your health, and Toughness decreases damage taken (except for DoT effects like bleeds (speaking of bleeds, they need to be fixed)). Your Strength level would increase your Power when using Melee, Ranged for Ranged, and Magic for Magic. Same goes for Precision and Attack/Melee, Ranged/Ranged, and Magic/Magic. Constitution would increase your Vitality, and Defense would increase Toughness. In addition to our skills increasing those stats, armor and weapons would increase them as well. All weapons would have a damage (like now), and all armor would have a defense (like now). I could go on more, but I won't, for the sake of convenience.
- Weapon-specific abilities: These are big. These have to happen. The closest we have right now is with Magic, where you really only have 2 types of weapons: wands and staffs. However, with Melee, you have access to all sorts of weapons. If Jagex won't make weapon-type-specific abilities, like abilities for longswords, rapiers, warhammers, etc, at the very least make abilities for the different attack styles: slash, stab, and crush. Then when you get into the 2H, MH, or DW section of them, you have a whole arsenal of abilities: abilities for 2H slash, 2H stab, and 2H crush, abilities for MH slash, stab, and crush, and DW slash, stab, crush (for DW, unless it's a generic DW ability, you must have 2 weapons of the same attack type to use the attack-type-specific abilities).
REMOVE THE DAMNED TRIANGLE: Big one. The combat triangle is archaic and does nothing at this point. Remove it. It creates more problems than solutions, and is not worth having around any longer.
Snakone wrote:
i really like chain skills, and the ability to dodge attacks depending on ur dexterity

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Leadership is not about strength, nor glory, nor honor. Leadership is about understanding the people you lead, and serving their wills as much as possible, while remaining just, and protecting them. A leader, no matter how great or strong, is nothing without his people.


Last edited by Manwe on Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:23 am; edited 4 times in total
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Capricorn
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PostSubject: Re: What Makes a Good Combat System?   Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:28 pm

- Movement: How you move around the battlefield should mean a lot more than it does now.
- Quality over Quantity: Instead of trying to make us use as many abilities as possible, make our abilities actually do something aside from DPS.
- Change the Stats System: Here we get into the "WoW-Scape" area where we're going to be like more "traditional" MMOs. Give us 4 basic stats on our combat stats: Power, Precision, Vitality, and Toughness. Power increases damage dealt, Precision increases your Critical Hit chance, Vitality increases your health, and Toughness decreases damage taken (except for DoT effects like bleeds (speaking of bleeds, they need to be fixed)). Your Strength level would increase your Power when using Melee, Ranged for Ranged, and Magic for Magic. Same goes for Precision and Attack/Melee, Ranged/Ranged, and Magic/Magic. Constitution would increase your Vitality, and Defense would increase Toughness. In addition to our skills increasing those stats, armor and weapons would increase them as well. All weapons would have a damage (like now), and all armor would have a defense (like now). I could go on more, but I won't, for the sake of convenience.
- Weapon-specific abilities: These are big. These have to happen. The closest we have right now is with Magic, where you really only have 2 types of weapons: wands and staffs. However, with Melee, you have access to all sorts of weapons. If Jagex won't make weapon-type-specific abilities, like abilities for longswords, rapiers, warhammers, etc, at the very least make abilities for the different attack styles: slash, stab, and crush. Then when you get into the 2H, MH, or DW section of them, you have a whole arsenal of abilities: abilities for 2H slash, 2H stab, and 2H crush, abilities for MH slash, stab, and crush, and DW slash, stab, crush (for DW, unless it's a generic DW ability, you must have 2 weapons of the same attack type to use the attack-type-specific abilities).
- REMOVE THE DAMNED TRIANGLE: Big one. The combat triangle is archaic and does nothing at this point. Remove it. It creates more problems than solutions, and is not worth having around any longer.

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PostSubject: Re: What Makes a Good Combat System?   Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:19 pm

Capricorn wrote:
- Movement: How you move around the battlefield should mean a lot more than it does now.
- Quality over Quantity: Instead of trying to make us use as many abilities as possible, make our abilities actually do something aside from DPS.
- Change the Stats System: Here we get into the "WoW-Scape" area where we're going to be like more "traditional" MMOs. Give us 4 basic stats on our combat stats: Power, Precision, Vitality, and Toughness. Power increases damage dealt, Precision increases your Critical Hit chance, Vitality increases your health, and Toughness decreases damage taken (except for DoT effects like bleeds (speaking of bleeds, they need to be fixed)). Your Strength level would increase your Power when using Melee, Ranged for Ranged, and Magic for Magic. Same goes for Precision and Attack/Melee, Ranged/Ranged, and Magic/Magic. Constitution would increase your Vitality, and Defense would increase Toughness. In addition to our skills increasing those stats, armor and weapons would increase them as well. All weapons would have a damage (like now), and all armor would have a defense (like now). I could go on more, but I won't, for the sake of convenience.
- Weapon-specific abilities: These are big. These have to happen. The closest we have right now is with Magic, where you really only have 2 types of weapons: wands and staffs. However, with Melee, you have access to all sorts of weapons. If Jagex won't make weapon-type-specific abilities, like abilities for longswords, rapiers, warhammers, etc, at the very least make abilities for the different attack styles: slash, stab, and crush. Then when you get into the 2H, MH, or DW section of them, you have a whole arsenal of abilities: abilities for 2H slash, 2H stab, and 2H crush, abilities for MH slash, stab, and crush, and DW slash, stab, crush (for DW, unless it's a generic DW ability, you must have 2 weapons of the same attack type to use the attack-type-specific abilities).
- REMOVE THE DAMNED TRIANGLE: Big one. The combat triangle is archaic and does nothing at this point. Remove it. It creates more problems than solutions, and is not worth having around any longer.
This, all of it.

Concerning stats, they need to rework the game to remove the dependance on gameticks and go towards a realtime system. Jagex could make each weapon the attack speed they are now, but they could add "attack speed" stats to armour which reduces how long it takes to do an auto-attack.

This way, 2h players can focus on building damage while DW players can focus on attack speed.



PvP in the old system masked how broken movement was. If you PvP'd in Edgeville, you did 1v1 melee fights, if you did Hybrid fights, you used Ice Barrage to keep enemies in place. No movement whatsoever. Now we have movement in combat, and it's pretty clunky. They don't have to introduce WASD movement, but they could use Diablo 3's movement system where your character follows your mouse when you hold down the left button.


As for abilities, each style should have a gimick/mechanic that compliments their abilities.

In WoW, ignoring their mana/energy bar, Paladins' have Holy Power and Rogues' have Combo Points.

The Power/Points are used for certain abilities to increase their power/usefulness.

Let's say Meleers' use Combo Points. The only abilities that give you a CP is Slice, Punish, Cleave, and Decimate/Havoc. Assault/Destroy/Hurricane use up CP for the following:

Assault: Deals 94%/125%/157%/188%/219% per hit depending on how many CP used.

Destroy: Deals 188% damage and Stuns for 1 second + 1 more second for every CP used.

Hurricane: Deals 125% damage every second. Lasts 1 second. Add a second for each CP used.


There should also be Passives for each style to make them unique or to cover up a weakness.

Melee: Subsequent binds/stuns used on you are under the effects of Diminishing Return. This means you cannot be chained stunned/bound forever.


I'm not going to think of more since I can't be bothered.


In my spare time I play Smite since it's a lot more strategic then RS. My name there is Zamochy.

Here's a video of the god I play; it shows some gameplay from Smite, as well as game mechanics.



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Capricorn
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PostSubject: Re: What Makes a Good Combat System?   Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:56 pm

Zamochy wrote:
They don't have to introduce WASD movement, but they could use Diablo 3's movement system where your character follows your mouse when you hold down the left button.
I don't mind if they don't add WASD movement. I just want the movement to not be so damned clunky.

As for actual combat, I don't want to have anything that's like mana; the Adrenaline Bar is as far as I want to go with that. Mana makes combat too restrictive and doesn't allow for intuitive gameplay. It's also really hard to come up with responses to certain tactics if we're limited to how much mana/resources we have. Honestly, the system we have is fine in terms of abilities, we just need more crowd control/utility skills instead of straight up DPS skills.

This is currently what I'm using in GW2 (this is not me), so if you want to see some gameplay, world PvP footage starts at 16:00. He does do a bit of editing for dramatic effect, but not too much.


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PostSubject: Re: What Makes a Good Combat System?   Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:04 pm

-A good community that's backing it, and some game staff that works on balancing issues on a DAILY BASIS.
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PostSubject: Re: What Makes a Good Combat System?   Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:53 pm

Jobine wrote:
-A good community that's backing it, and some game staff that works on balancing issues on a DAILY BASIS.
Constantly balancing the game may seem like a good idea, it can cause problems. What may seem ridiculously OP upon release can become ridiculously UP later because new tactics have emerged. There should definitely be a team monitoring the balance of the game, but updating it on a daily basis can cause major problems, and make the game feel like a constant beta.

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PostSubject: Re: What Makes a Good Combat System?   Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:38 am

i really like chain skills, and the ability to dodge attacks depending on ur dexterity
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